On Saturday 19 May 2007 17:49:03 Djihed Afifi wrote: > Salam, > > > No, actually, we studied in Arabic first then in English, and even when > > we studied using Arabic abbreviations we used to write the abbreviations > > but we never read it, when we used to read an Arabic abbreviation we used > > to say the full form. > > Well we did, in my previous example, we said م م أ every time. I believe > it just is a question of practice. A lot of people do it, your group > happened to not do it, but that's hardly the way to put forward a > policy. > > > This brings us to a very important issue, in Arabic, we can have > > abbreviations but we cannot have acronyms. > > Why? will your tongue flip over if you prounouce the acronym? Again, > it's just a question of practice. And believe it, unless you can > categorily prove otherwise, the vast majority of Arabs would rather deal > with Arabic. I think you should seriously consider the general public > rather than the select few, who you assume know the english language. > > > OK, how many people are we? We're not more that 20 persons, what can we > > do? We won't be able to change a lot of people. > > As I said, it's a start. First make it run, then make it run faster. > > > You didn't answer my question, would you really ask your friends that > > question? Assuming you did and your friend asked what it means and you > > told him the full form, there's a chance of only 20% that he will > > actually start using that abbreviation with his friends. > > Great, where is your study that shows this 20% number? > > I already answered your question. I told you we, hundreds of thousands > of students use the Arabic form *only* and we never had a problem with > it. Heck, even televised high school lessons use the abbreviated forms. > I think eveyone will go "what!" when faced with an English abbreviation > that they never heard about it, and never knew the meaning of the > original words. > > > Let me quote from a how-to that I really like and it is the reason why I > > decided to use Linux and contribute to KDE. > > > > "Back around 1991 I learned that many hackers who have English as a > > second language use it in technical discussions even when they share a > > birth tongue; it was reported to me at the time that English has a richer > > technical vocabulary than any other language and is therefore simply a > > better tool for the job. For similar reasons, translations of technical > > books written in English are often unsatisfactory (when they get done at > > all). > > Can we stop this please? why do you keep dragging documentation, > programming, etc into the equation? we are talking about user > interfaces. > > Let me go one step further and claim one more thing. You can NEVER get > the masses of Arabic users to adopt English as a second language en > masse. That will never happen. It's true that English has a richer > running technical vocabulary, other languages and their speakers will > stay behind perpetually if they don't import this vocabulary into their > languages. > > Advocating the use of English directly will always lead to the > inevitable situation (that we more or less have nowadays anyway) of a > select few class of people knowing the language, and a vast majority of > poor people with no access to technology because of language barriers. > It's a dangerous path you are advocating there. Throwing the towel and > requesting that Arabic speakers adopt another language will lead to > technological, cultural and social disasters. > > I urge you to go look at other nations and see how much they translate. > Precisely because of this issue. > > > Linus Torvalds, a Finn, comments his code in English (it apparently never > > occurred to him to do otherwise). His fluency in English has been an > > important factor in his ability to recruit a worldwide community of > > developers for Linux. It's an example worth following." > > I'm not after recruiting developers, I'm after providing an Arabic > interface for the vast majority of Arabs who have a very weak second > language. > > I'll tell you something about the translation process. Nobody is saying > that we should turn our backs onto the English language. That can't > happen. What we should do, as we are the select few who do know the > English language, is to be the "bridge" between two languages. For that > to succeed, you shouldn't force the recipient group to adopt any element > of the source language, because if you do you're literally creating > hurdles for them. > > For a minute, drop the second language assuption and consider the vast > majority of arab users who have no grasp whatsover of the English > language beyond "yes" and "no", and probably "I love you" ;) > > > That is exactly my point, you don't have to have English as your second > > language to use these abbreviations, English abbreviations should be used > > everywhere. > > Why? they make even less sense for an Arabic user whose second language > is French and thus is more likely to know the French abbreivations. I > told you, no other language just imports all English languages wholesale > as you suggest. > > I wonder, on the one hand you think Arabic people won't understand > abbreviations using Arabic letters, on the other hand you advocate that > they just use the even more cryptic English abbreviations? > > > You see, the word Television, Arabs first translated it as رائي, when no > > one used it they translated it to تلفاز, and nowadays, everyone uses > > تلفزيون. > > OK, how is "car" translated into Arabic? I hope that convinces you to > keep ancedotal examples aside. > > > Regards, > Djihed > > > _______________________________________________ > Doc mailing list > Doc at arabeyes dot org > http://lists.arabeyes.org/mailman/listinfo/doc OK, fine, since the majority, including the leader of this group want to use Arabic abbreviations, we will. But one problem remains, if we use Arabic abbreviations, and those who are poor in English will learn the Arabic abbreviations the English ones, wouldn't that separate us from the west? wouldn't that make those people lost when they happen to have to face the world? I think that teaching children better English is better than using Arabic terms that they understand..... That will just make them less interested in English. Anyways, why don't we just use CD? :D Cheers, Laith Juwaidah
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