Re: Arabeyes -- a critique

[Muhammad Alkarouri <malkarouri at yahoo dot co dot uk>]

 --- Mohammed Elzubeir <elzubeir at arabeyes dot org> wrote: 
> On Sat, 2005-01-15 at 17:53 +0000, Abdulhaq Lynch wrote:
> > assalaamu `alaykum
> > 
> > I dont' understand the self-flagellation and cries of doom that are from
> time 
> > to time uttered here.
> 
> The best criticism is one that comes from within. It's not like I joined
> the project a couple years down the road -- I've been here from the
> beginning and I believe that when I cry bloody murder, it's not because
> I am simply being pessimistic about things.

We need that, really, we do.

> 
> > 
> > In the FOSS world 99% of developers are doing their (voluntary) work
> because 
> > they enjoy it. If their work becomes dull or tedious they will stop. The
> same 
> > applies, I believe, here, although there are some other incentives relating
> 
> > to, perhaps, 'political' reasons. But primarily we/you work for the
> pleasure 
> > of solving the problem, and the enjoyment of seeing the solution and people
> 
> > using our software.
> 
> A lot of what we do at Arabeyes is stuff we enjoy.. and a lot of it is
> stuff we don't enjoy. I can tell you that about 60% of what I do for
> Arabeyes is stuff I don't enjoy but find to be necessary.
> 

Some of the stuff we enjoy, and some we just enjoy the results of.
If you, like Elzubeir, enjoy seeing Arabs using FOSS, you will put up with such
stuff as server configuration, etc. The thing requested is that we all need to
be content with long term satisfaction, rather than short term enthusiasm.

> > Now, in respect of arabising something like OpenOffice, the primary emotion
> 
> > one feels is pure pain. I checked out the source code and had a look. Even 
> > compiling this 80MB beast is a feat in itself. For most types of work I
> could 
> > just pick a small part of the app, equation rendering for example, and try
> to 
> > improve it - perhaps I need to understand 5% of the code base at the most. 
> > However, to arabise the code I need to get a good grasp of much larger 
> > sections of the code. This is pure pain and just isn't repaid by the
> feelings 
> > I might get if I ever managed to complete the job.
> 
> You are absolutely right, here.. but even when looking at things like
> FriBidi (which has a small code base), we haven't done much in terms of
> contributing to it. We have been sitting here waiting for FriBidi
> authors to add shaping to the library for months upon months -- sounds
> to me like time to fork the library and get on with it. But, we've
> gotten so used to just sitting and waiting for others to do some of the
> hairier work.
> 

Political correctness. This is a very special case. And I don't think this can
be used as an example here because things went too sentimental. (Hint: --
sounds to me like .., was not a technical decision)

> By the way, this is not meant to say that Arabeyes people haven't done
> anything. We, collectively, have achieved a _lot_! I am simply saying
> that so much more could and should have been done. Also, this whole post
> is not so much about that only -- it's the fact that once all this is
> said and done we will be left with what to do? The mandate of the
> project says to Arabize FOSS. What do we do when it's done? I am simply
> looking several years ahead.

May I use the opportunity to say that it is my opinion that it will not get
'done'? I cannot see a clear 'end of the road' for 'Arabize FOSS' as long as
there is new FOSS everyday..

> > Knowing this, why should I be concerned if other people are not arabising 
> > OpenOffice? It's an awful job and one that is far easier for an OpenOffice 
> > dedicated developer to do. He can go straight to the sections of code that 
> > need 
> > changing, etc. I don't demand that Thamer or some other arab should start 
> > punishing themselves with this job because 'they should'. FOSS doesn't work
> 
> > like that and it will be some time before it could. Perhaps if arab 
> > governments start seeing 'the light' then they could pay people to do it. 
> > Until then.. (the words 'hell' and 'freezing over' spring to mind')...
> 
> Well yes and no. I am concerned and others here _should_ be concerned.
> The fact that beasts like OOo are not touched by volunteers here is not
> unusual. Most of the people working on OOo are Sun employees anyway and
> very very few people contribute to it from outside of Sun. However,
> _because_ those developers don't seem to have Arabic high enough (for
> us) on their agenda, we should take it upon ourselves to find a way
> through.

And if a 'non-volunteer' organization opted to do it, we cry foul, they should
be volunteers. Oh, never mind.

> 
> You are absolutely right that having developers deal with piles upon
> piles of code like OOo's would probably require someone being paid to do
> it, simply because it is too painful to do voluntarily. Should we make
> it our job to find a way to pay people to do it then? Those are the
> types of questions I would like to raise here. Why not?
> 
> In the early days of Arabeyes I was very suspecious of financial
> dealings and anything smelling $'s was suspect. This outlook has changed
> for me today. I think it would be rather constructive to have a bounty
> system for dealing with beasts like OOo and the likes. It is unfortunate
> that institutes like the KACST are not employing such tactics (instead
> they are wasting their money and resources on paying for translations
> done by "professional" but non-technical translators).

You bring it yourself? Ok, assume the Egyptian ministry of culture wants to do
it, would you suggest the bounty system also? And do you suggest that the NSF
(in the US) and the EU give 'bounties' instead of grants? Interesting, though I
see it as a difference in scale..

> 
> > Until as mentioned elsewhere the people in the Middle East start to feel
> that 
> > they should pay for using MSOffice etc, then there is no incentive for Red 
> > Hat et al. to arabise linux as they can't compete with a free MSOffice/XP.
> > 
> 
> That's a whole other issue. If RedHat wanted to truly penetrate the
> market here, they would have flexed their muscle in that area. They
> obviously don't want to, just yet. Not on the desktop anyway.

There is incentive for KACST. Do I need 'Red Hat' specifically to do it for me?
Or are we speaking about large organizations?

> 
> > In conclusion I think that we should accept that, whatever the arabeyes 
> > charter etc. says, we are here for personal reasons where pleasant emotions
> 
> 
> I don't think we should accept anything as-is -- let alone that I was
> part of writing those documents ;)
> 
> > are expected and to demand/expect that any group of people start punishing 
> > themselves voluntarily is asking too much.
> > 
> 
> Really, that is not the intention. I am simply saying that it is not
> working as advertised. Some projects are very successful. ITL, Katoob,
> PuTTY, VIM, etc. Please don't mistake my initial post for someone who
> does not appreciate the talent involved here. I am simply saying that if
> we are not able to achieve those goals as we have planned, perhaps we
> should have an alternate plan -- one which I will duly publish in
> February.

Good. Hopefully the plan will be within the same general goals.

> 
> > And by the way, it's not a lack of talent. The ability is here. It's the
> large 
> > amounts of time and the willingness to undergo root canal surgery that is 
> > missing.
> > 
> 
> No, technical know-hows _are_ missing. There are some, but not enough.

And whatever is already existing is not used properly, but that is another
topic.

> 
> > I do agree that compared to the number of PC's in the arab world, the
> interest 
> > in FOSS is surprisingly low. That is a huge topic for discussion in itself.
> > 
> 
> That is just something that will come in time. I'm not worried about
> that ;)

All roads lead to Rome. I go to people to try to convince them to use Linux,
and Elzubeir makes Linux systems usable for them (or is it BSD:)

> 
> Regards
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> | Mohammed Elzubeir    | Visit us at:                 |
> |                      |  http://www.arabeyes.org/    |
> | Arabeyes Project     | Homepage:                    |
> | Unix the 'right' way |  http://elzubeir.openius.com/|
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 

Salam,
Muhammad Alkarouri


	
	
		
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