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Re: Volunteers, Unicode, previous examples and things
- To: General Arabization Discussion <general at arabeyes dot org>
- Subject: Re: Volunteers, Unicode, previous examples and things
- From: Meor Ridzuan Meor Yahaya <meor dot ridzuan at gmail dot com>
- Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:44:54 +0800
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Dear Abdallah,
Just curious, when you say you are not going to wait, what are you
planning to do? Would you mind let us know?
Initially, I was waiting for the quran project to be completed too.
Until late last year, I was in discussion with the project maintainer,
Mr Yousif. We discuss the problems he was facing, and seems that the
project is not progressing much. That was the time when I decided I
would like to do something about it, and it was not programming an
application!
First, I get involve in some font developement, and at the same time I
created the Quran file. After a few months of trying and searching, I
finally know what to do exactly to develop a complete font to display
the quran. Later, I run into the problems of encoding the quran. I
decided to develop my own approach, with the priority of visual
correctness, and also correct representation of the words. Thus, the
results, as I posted last time. Now, I have completed to quran text
with the exact visual representation of the Madinah Mushaf. That is
what needed to be proofread. I think it is complete, with minor
correction needed.
As for searching, and correct word representation, I think current
state of standards and technologies still need to be develop. That is
what is going on in this forum.
What I would like to achieve is to index the word of the quran , with
their root words. This has been done, but only part of it available in
digital format. Hope we can finish this soon.
Regards.
On 6/30/05, Abdalla Alothman <abdalla at pheye dot net> wrote:
> On Thursday 30 June 2005 01:12, Mete Kural wrote:
> >
> > Salaamu Alaikum Abdalla,
>
> Wa alaikum asalam wa rahmatullaah.
>
> > I don't quite understand what you mean here in trying to distinguish the Quran
> > from being a scripture but only a recital.
>
> I didn't make the distinction, it's already there before I was born. Hence,
> a written Quran is called a MuS-Haf where as a Tilaawa is not called a MuS-Haf.
> Moreover, I didn't deny that the Quran takes various forms, of which one is the
> written form (MuS-Haf). As for exclusively saying that it is a recital, what can
> I do? It's called Quraan. Insinuating that I deny that the Quran is a kitaab is a
> bit unappropriate. I simply denied that the Quran is a kutbaan (something that is
> only written before it is distributed.) From a developer's perspective, think of it
> as raw text that you can format as HTML, XML, PDF, or pass it to a speech engine to
> be read outloud.
>
> > A scripture is recited.
>
> Yes, but it remains a scripture. If you burn all of its copies in the whole
> world, nobody can reproduce it, because it is depended on the written sources.
> This cannot happen to the Quran because it is not a scripture, but a recital.
> Moreover, a scripture is not recited the way the Quran should be recited (wa
> rattil al-qur-aana tarteela. Surat Al-Muzzamil)
>
> Because the Pentatuech (Torah) is a scripture, it is non-existent today (the
> people of Musa (s) lost it many times before the last time; and whenever they
> lost it they had bad luck in battles. See Albaqrah:248). What exists is what
> it supposedly contained. The Quran, however, is exists.
>
> In its original format, the scripture has its sources in manuscripts. The sources
> of the Quran are not manuscripts or divine materials.
>
> > As you know, the second ayah of the second surah start
> > with "dhaalika l-kitaabu laa rayba fiih" translated in many translations similar
> > to "This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt".
> > Also the third ayah of the third surah mentions "nazzala `alayka l-kitaaba bi-l-haqq"
> > translated in Pickthall as "He hath revealed unto thee the Scripture with truth". In addition, please find:
> >
> > Also the third ayah of the third surah mentions "nazzala `alayka l-kitaaba bi-l-haqq"
> > translated in Pickthall as "He hath revealed unto thee the Scripture with truth".
> [...]
>
> Shakir translates it as: This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a
> guide to those who guard (against evil).
>
> Yusuf Ali translates it as: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure,
> without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
>
> See: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html
>
> Khan and Hilali translate it as: This is the Book (the Qur'ân),
> whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn
> [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all
> kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh
> much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].
>
> See: http://quran.nu/en/
>
> Among the favored translations by Ahl Al-Sunna, I only see Pickthall
> using "scripture." And that might be related to his pre-Islam
> background or maybe it's his personal opinion. Nevertheless, I am by
> no means trying to discredit Pickthall and his fine works. Also, whoever
> wants to refer to the Quran as a "scripture" let them do so, it's not
> really my concern.
>
> When it comes to the Quran being a book, nobody is denying that it is
> a "kitaab," but the question is that the "kitab" is not prepared by
> any human being. It is a kitab alright, but the question is who wrote
> it? And where is it? And what does it look like? That's why I clarified
> that the book is free format--it has the capability to spread in thin
> air as radio waves, paper and ink, stones, or whatever.
>
> When it comes to the Pentatauech, those books where sent down on Moses
> in a physical format. So they take the word "scripture;" that's not
> the end of their scriptures, though. The word is a wrong word to
> describe the Quran for reasons that are unsuitable as a discussion in
> this mailing list.
>
> The summary of the opinion I presented is very simple. The Quran is
> not bound by any physical format (i.e., paper and ink, etc.) When we
> hear the Quran in radio, what we are listening to is called "The Noble
> Quran" and so on.
>
> The idea is that when an application developer wishes to develop any
> application related to the Quran, she or he should ask: "What am I
> trying to present?" If the content is to present a "soft" MuS-Haf --
> something that looks like a MuS-Haf on a computer screen -- then I
> guess the application developer should comply with what the Muslims
> have agreed upon on what constitutes a MuS-Haf, visually speaking. But
> if the goal is to do some operations with the Quran, the text doesn't
> have to look exactly like the MuS-Haf.
>
> > Even the most traditional accounts record that the transmission was
> > both oral and written.
>
> Of course, and nobody is denying that as well. And nobody can deny
> that if it wasn't for tawaatur, we would not have at hand a single
> authentic qiraa-ah. ;)
>
> It is not wrong to write the Quran, but IMHO, I think it is wrong to
> claim that the Quran is a scripture only. When preachers of other
> religions appear on TV an say, "This is the word of God!" They fall
> into numerous problems that we Muslims do not need (e.g., in their
> ancient scriptures, the word "god"--as is--is not there.) such as
> letting others imagine that the written Quran should only appear as it
> is in the MaSaaHif. As time passes by, people will tend to ignore the
> rulings related to the text of the Quran if the text does not look
> like a MuS-Haf (e.g., maintaining a cleanliness state and wearing
> appropriate clothing as a means of respect).
>
> > Remember that surah 85 ayah 21-22 says:
> >
> > "bal huwa qur'anu mujeed. fee lawhum mahfoodh."
>
> This has nothing to do, IMHO, with constraining the Quran into its
> written format only, and can be answered back with an aya from surat
> Al-Qiyama:
>
> Fa itha qar-anahu fattabi' qur-aanah. (Thuma in 'alayna bayanah)
>
> It doesn't say fa itha katabnahu for obvious reasons...
>
> Allah (tt) did not send down a book that has a physical format just
> like what the Messenger Musa (a) received from Allah as Allah (tt)
> says in many places including surat Al-A'laa:
>
> Ina hatha lafi al-suHuf al-Uoola, suHufi Ibraheema wa Musa.
>
> There are no suHuf or alwaaH (tablets) that were sent down by Allah
> (tt), IMHO. Moreover, looking at various Quran manuscripts throughout
> the Islamic history reveals undeniable facts that:
>
> 1. In the early stages of its writing, the Quran was written with
> plain letters.
>
> 2. Dotting notations was added in more than one stage.
>
> 3. Simple diacritical marks where added in slow steps.
>
> 4. There wasn't any aya numbers or sections
>
> Yet, what they held in their hands was indeed called The Quran. I
> doubt that anyone can deny that the Sura (Surat Taaha) 'Umar snatched
> from his sister's hands before his Islam--that sura that caused an
> earthquake in his heart-- looked like Surat Taaha we see today in the
> MuS-Haf. The same thing applies when we were in highschool and we were
> asked to write down a passage from the Quran. I doubt anyone can deny
> that what we wrote was a Quran (We even wrote it down without
> diacritical marks!) If nobody doubts, then I ask: Why then are
> numerous Quran related projects are postponed until what can be
> presented will match the MuS-Haf? I don't know about the others, but
> I'm not going to wait. :)
>
> Copying the Quran and inventing numerous ways to present it and
> simplify its readings was an amazing process that the SaHaaba and the
> tabi'een overtook and amazed the world with it [at times when reading
> was a crime in some societies]. But those methods are not closed to
> development.
>
> Wishing you and your family peace and good health.
>
> Salam,
> Abdalla Alothman
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