Re: Arabeyes Charter Proposal

[Nadim Shaikli <shaikli at yahoo dot com>]

There were too many "come-ons" and "man" etc for me to just blow this off,
as I've promised myself not to get into this type of stuff again; but when
an injustice is made there is no room for silence.

On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 04:25:53 +0100
  "Chahine M. Hamila" <mch at chaham dot com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > If it were about accountability, then drop the names and titles and
> > elevate the project above everyone (you, me, him, ...)
> 
> As I told you, you can put the names you want. If you want no name, then you 
> can
> call the ones who take care of L10N for example,
> "The-one-who-supervises-most-localization-work-in-arabeyes". Come on now,
this 
> is
> being a ridiculous battle about semantics.

How about volunteer ?

> > and ink out tasks
> > and deliverables (yes details) people should be "accountable" for and
> > time-lines for delivery.
> 
> Man, I have quite a few things in my life to do, and can't always commit to
> deliver at given deadlines with arabeyes. We are volunteers, and unless you 
> make
> it earn me a decent living, it will have to count with my life's priorities.

So what about the responsibilities and accountability, that were talked about,
when delivery dates and deadlines can't be generated or abided by.  As for
having things to do in your life - we all do (its called time-management
and prioritization).

> >  Remove any doubts about any potential sought-after
> > or implicit personal gains by attempting to gain and seeking a purity of
> > purpose.
> 
> Man, why don't you just ASSUME we are not seeking personal stuff out of this?

> Is
> it because you think that way? And tell me, what arabeyes can give me for 
> example
> that life hasn't already given me??? This is sick man, I mean, how can a
> cyberproject help me impress chicks, or impress potential clients with the 
> casual
> amateur glitches or have my hometown's folks wait for me every return at the
> airport as the coming Messiah?
> And let's suppose for a second that we do it for appearing on Al-Jazeera as
the
> Arab World's Saviors... What's the problem if that gets the job done, while
> trying to avoid it just ruins it?

Chahine, I conduct myself in a professional manner with you and everyone else
I come in contact with -- if you choose to keep insulting people try to do it
under your breath.

As for why don't I assume that - how can I assume it when its possibly not
true (can everyone state that its not so and declare and give their word
to that effect in 100% honesty ?).  Why would it matter who's leading a
project when work needs to be done and completed.  Again let's revert to
honesty here, a license issue that should have been resolved with a 10 minute
vote results in alienating one person and the creation of a
hierarchy/label/etc without the resolution of what really needed to be
resolved -- the need for more results and more on-the-ground work.

> >
> > Having hierarchy doesn't necessarily mean anything - Enron anyone ?
> 
> IBM, Microsoft, AOL, Dell, HP, Total, ELF, Mercedes, Boeing, Telefonica, 
> Jazztel,
> Gateway, NBC, CNN, Dizney, Corel, Yahoo!, Amazon, and thousands of others,
can
> you imagine these without a structure. Come on, structure doesn't prevent
> failure, but its absence provokes it, definitely. Come on Nadim, are you just
> arguing for the sake of arguing or didn't you really know that???

:-) those are all companies - last I checked arabeyes wasn't one (the Enron
thing was a joke - you know, funny ha ha)

> >
> > How many projects out there are Bazaar vs. Cathedral and which has most
> > linux projects adopted (including linus).
> 
> I'm afraid you are misunderstand Raymond's Bazaar model (I am not a fan of E.
> Raymond btw). Bazaar's model introduces a dose of variance in the Cathedral
> model, in that sense that, folks involved in the project will do what they
want
> in an open way.

>                 is not the closed way with set up ways by a few and others
> under their commands to execute.

Sorry for pulling that sentence out of its paragraph - but it bares
highlighting since its almost identical to what the charter is calling
for (note charter A3 + coordinators).  And is exactly what I'm fighting
against.

> But the bazaar model never implied absence of structure. In fact, the model
you
> quote DO have a structure. Linus has the last word on what gets in the
kernel,

linus has the last word because he is the most technically "enabled" one to
make that decision - I think you are confusing technical decisions (of which I
have no problem saying "Best idea should ALWAYS win") and simply mandating
and reaping fruits (if any).  I had an issue with Mohammed when he saw no
problem in the ITP (or whatever it was) article that simply stated his name in
relation to the project and he didn't see fault with it, implying

 arabeyes = Mohammed

when it should have been

 arabeyes = volunteers + core[Mohammed] (in that order; not out of any
                                         disrespect, but out of global outlook)

I pointed this out and nothing was done - even the blurb on the arabeyes page
noted the correction of number of volunteers, but nothing about the other 3 of
us and the various volunteers.  Mind you Isam and myself also labored in
writing a great deal of what was finally submitted.  I brushed it off, but
after all this stuff (titles, etc), you want me to ASSUME what now ?  I'm
doing this fi'sabeel Alla and for all Arabs and the concept of a Utopian
project (you bet) and not for your sake or Isam's or Mohammed's.

> and you might chose to make a change to his braindamaged monolithic kernel
> architecture, he will probably refuse it and it won't get into the kernel 
> without
> having anyone else having a say in that. So here, this charter is certainly 
> more
> democratic than Linus's run of Linux's development. In addition to that, 
> there's
> a coordinator who helps him. Until a few months ago, it was Alan Cox, the 
> author
> of most of the initial network layer, and then Alan (and the kid who took his
> position now) was aided by a few others.
> In fact, all successful open projects function in a way very similar to the
one
> set in this charter, sometimes in a mode that is much more opaque than what
has
> been proposed here. Gnome, Apache, KDE, XFree86, Debian, Linux, GNU, all are 
> run
> this way.

I am 100% behind opaque'ness and having people rise to do what needs to be
done, but this brings us back to square 1.  Plus I can't say that there
are many projects out there that even attempt to do what Arabeyes has set to
do - which is to take all aspects of EVERYTHING linux (drivers, editors,
window-managers, consoles, documentation, keyboards, mappings, etc) without
a common framework (ie. even dissimilar to Gnome/KDE).

> >
> > I've done a variety of things (if memory serves), but I can't say that
> > I will undertake PR.  I will do what I can to bring linux to Arabs without
> > getting in the way of any of you coordinators.
> 
> Nadim, see? here you are breaking the cooperative mode. How is the "you
> coordinators" supposed to create a cooperative athmosphere when both the 
> hostile
> tone and the meaning of it is set to emphasize a divide in the team?

No hostile anything - I say what's on my mind.  I'm the poster child of
cooperation (you should know), so please don't belittle me.

> Now, instead of vague claims of "bringing linux to Arabs" which tens have
tried
> before you and failed with more work, what are you going to do concretely
about
> it? What useful thing are you going to do about it knowing that we are
supposed
> to work as a team? What would make you different from - more necessary than -
> the tens of volunteers in there?

You didn't want to talk details ("techincal work") prior to this, now you
want to dive into them ?  This is NOT a me, them issue nor is it I or you.
People volunteer to get things done because they want to, not because they
need to be told what to do (there are those that need that direction as well).
We all came together and put forth ideas, those were collected and we
attempted to start down that list.  The cooperative work was lacking much
needed hands (I think you might remember our IRC session in which I attempted
to note to you specifically our (arabeyes') collective need to get these
things out and completed as soon as possible - no sense in opening wounds as
you put it).  But, and I've said this before, in my opinion having a mind-set
of "I'll do whatever is needed to be done" is a million times better than
being chained to a category and being unproductful.  If you've ever
volunteered in real life for something that you wanted to show-up for - why
did you quit or stop ?

> >
> > Isam's vote is irrelevant (per your charter) - even if he votes no
> > the decision's been made.
> 
> Nadim, I am not going to speak for Isam here, but this is the second time in
a
> day you give me the impression you're considering Isam to be a half witted 
> peon.
> I think Isam can speak for himself but I guess he doesn't need you to tell
that
> his work is our trash (what have you done that's better than Isam's work?) or
> that Isam's vote is irrelevant. I happen to think on the contrary that Isam's
> vote is important, very much for the solidity of this team at least which you
> don't seem to care much about since you've constantly been behaving in a way 
> that
> rifts it in gangs (you vs us mentality all the time).

You told me to speak for myself and I can only tell YOU to do the same.
Please attempt not to put words or intentions in my mouth (I don't do that to
you and you seem to take lots of liberties in my rights).  As for what was
said - read the charter YOURSELF to see what is meant.  Isam's vote is
indeed irrelevant since there are 4 members and 2 already said yes, a NO
from Isam will mean its a tie-breaker which you/Mohammed will decide on,
if its a YES then the same result is gotten (last I checked irrelevance in
vote is not a sign of disrespect).  As for your talk about rifts, I can only
say come on now.  How many hours have we put into this for me to create rifts
?  What I am fighting for here (have you thought about this) ?  Aren't I
saying the project is above all else and that we should treat it sacredly and
remove any potential gray areas away from it (your utopia and heaven vs. dirty
earth -- what is wrong in treating Arabeyes heavenly) ?  Aren't I saying
we should get results and concentrate on work that needs to be done (and
generate TODO lists) and move on (instead of cutting up and creating areas of
control) ?  Haven't I spent close to 40 hours a week on Arabeyes (if not
more) doing, lots of time, semi-crap work just to inch it along ?  Now you
are telling me I'm creating rifts and I'm not cooperating - how amusing
(you're feelings and disapproval are noted)...

As for Isam - I hold him in the highest regrads (and he knows this).  I
respect his purity (he seriously shifted my line of thinking while we
were all talking about linus and why he never got to sell distro's); and for
a person to do that so easily shows a level of mind clarity and deep ethical
standards.  His ceaseless commitment, posting and endless curiosity are
nothing short of remarkable.

As for your comment about translation work - well, let's be honest (can we ?)
how many files have you translated (if you love it so) ?  I never said its
"trash" work -- I said it was something that was not of interest to any of us
(liberal use of us of course).  And I haven't done a single thing that is
better than anyone else (and I never implied that - so stop asking), I never
put anyone down, I never said anything BAD about anyone and I never wished ill
to anyone or anything; I hold everyone in the highest regard (esp. Mohammed
for his open-mindedness - and I REALLY really do -- I with everything that
took place consider him a friend, we've spent countless hours 'talking';
something this stupid will not interfere with my intellect or play havoc with
my thoughts).  I worked DAMN hard to get this off the ground and I really
wanted to make a difference, and this is the nod I get - thanks Chahine,
thanks alot.

 - Nadim


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