Re: Fedora and Translation Teams

[Sherif Abdelgawad <sabdelg at redhat dot com>]

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On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote:

> Then why are you replying? ;) I think we all want to get this done in the
> best way it can be for Arabic. 

I am replying because you accused me, and I hope this ends.

> Well, that explains it. You are Arabic speaking, so you object. I don't
> mean to burst your bubble here, but I am questioning the rationale
> behind the objection, not your mother tongue. I object to Fedora's
> current system because I find it counter-productive for translations. I
> clearly stated why it is so, and I pointed to other projects which have
> been doing this successfully. You are objecting because you have the
> right to? I'm not sure I follow the logic involved.
> 
> A logical reason would be, "Youcef and his team are doing a poor job, so
> poor that it is beyond repair. I would like to take over his role and
> fix those problems." Even with that, I would disagree, but at least it
> is a somewhat logical reason. Your reason is, I have the right to. 

Oh no .. now you are definitly wrong. I did not ask for taking
over his role nor I said I will not tell him what are my
concerns. I object because I have concerns and issues, and
with the current handling of issue at arabeyes, which you 
prove it now, that they attack if someone say hey I do not like
it this way. All what I said that I have concerns about the
translation which means that there are things I would rather
discuss.
 
I object because I find something wrong in the way things
are handled. A better way you should do is to ask me what
is wrong, and ask me how to fix it as a team. I never claimed
that Arabeyes is wrong or doing bad things. I always complained
about how you guys handle things. Which you are proving now.

> > it is not only me who object , yet it is not me who decide
> 
> Well, those who object should speak out then. Is it an embarassing
> thing? 

It is up to them, if they did not speak it is their problem.
I am aware of at least 2 ppl objecting. Do not you think
you better discuss how things should be and allow more 
somothely ppl to feel OK to join you rather than attacking?

> You are right, I may be unnecessarily defensive. However, I am very well
> aware of your feelings about Arabeyes as a whole -- which you made
> abundantly clear in the past to other people.
<snip>
> Oh no. Our mission is to bring Arabic to Linux and Unix, Arabeyes is but
> a vehicle. I think your ill feelings about Arabeyes stem from the very
> misunderstanding of what Arabeyes is.

I stated my feeling clearly that the way you handle any issue
is not something I feel is right. I might be right, might be 
wrong. But you never stopped and tried to discuss things,
you always jump to attack. I clearly mentioned before that
I do respect the group, and have nothing personal against.
I am very much wished to help and contribute, yet everytime
I try to get closer you fire without reason.

Linux-Egypt are working on arabic fedora distro, which I am 
contributing in. I did suggest on their forum to build RPMs
for Arabeyes projects. Do you think I would do such thing
if I have what you called "ill-feeling" aginst arabeyes.

You really mis-understood me and acting really in unnecessarily
definsive way. 

> 
> Believe it or not, Arabeyes members are normal people (at least most of
> us think of ourselves as normal ;). You are, however, contradicting
> yourself. You don't mind releasing the module (which you have released
> and taken and released, etc.) but you mind Youcef being the maintainer
> (oh, because you have the right to?). I am rather perplexed by all that.

Now you are telling lies I belive. I only took the module once
and I did release at the min I did learn that there is someone
wants it. Which normally person will send email if things happened
asking that he was doing this work and it seems I am assigned
to it which prevents him from doing his work. A nice email would
have got that done without all that misunderstanding and attacking.

You may ask Brend to check the logs and tell you if I ever took
the module again. See my point here? It is not me who have ill-feeling
here, you assumed and attacked and thought I am playing game 
or something, which I am honestly not. 

I explained why I object, yet I had not problem releasing the
module. I belive it is his right to finish it, and I quitly 
did release it. Because next,as I told him in an email
I will discuss my issues or concerns about the translation.
Yet I find you jump in defensing something never happened.
Having a memory more than a year ago for a discussion,
accusing me that I took , released, took, released the
module which is far from truth. 


> Yes you have. I have no intentions of digging into that -- I am simply
> pointing out that you are already carrying some old baggage against
> Arabeyes and so it should be noted. In other words, I don't take your
> opinion as unbiased or objective -- and I ask others to consider this
> when reading your opinions.

It seems it is you who are carrying old memory for a conversation
we had before. Yet, I think you forgot that we talked on IRC
and I cleared where I stand. I even tried to subscribe to your
mailing list. Yet it was one of your member who attacked me 
later and casued me to loose the interest even to discuss
anything. Yet I have no problems with arabeyes. I am planning
to provide RPMs for your packages, offering to do that
in an arabic distribution currently in the process and should
be out. So I do not think with me offering to do that I would
be against arabeyes. I may have concerns, yes, but yet I do
respect your effort. 

I would appreciate if you do not point something on my 
behave. My openion never saif anything about Arabeyes,
you the one having old memory and assuming I am acting
on that. Let me clear this again here and publically
I am not. Read again my posts here and forget about
your assumption because it is wrong.
 
> Unfortunately (for me), and fortunately for the Arab Open Source
> community, I do not have the say in this. I can simply suggest it.

Suggestion to leave the community ? Oh let me tell you that
translation is not a rocket since, and belive me Linux 
is growing fast in middle east, and if you are not the
Arabic community I am afraid so speak about Arabeyes.
Yet I did not ask you to leave nor I am going to contribute
to anything. So rest your case here, and stop this 
behavior which I would call it childish more than anything
else.
 
> I believe Youcef has asked you to explain your issues. This is why
> Arabeyes exists, in case you haven't noticed. It provides an open forum
> for people to discuss such issues. We setup QAC specifically for this.
> You are still free to join the QAC and participate in forming such
> decisions. 

I said in my post that I will discuss my issues here. Did you 
give time and found me not saying what are my issues? 
I also said I am not joing arabeyes team yet I standed to 
my right to contribute if I choose to. Fedora is an Open
source project, it has the tools, the infrastructure
and CVS. I do not need to be part of arabeyes if I need
to so anything, or I must do that if that what you are
refering to? Again it is you who pushing things far
away and assume and over react. You exactly did the
same thing the last time I tried to approach you guys.

Discussion about translation need to be here, I do not
see why should a discussion should be disconnected
from Fedora Project. I belive it has been stated
that if 5 or more translators from certain lang
are there, they can have their own mailing list.
Why do we need to move to discuss anything on 
arabeyes if I may ask ?
 
> > to defence blindly first, attacking and talk in such
> > a way far from being professional. Yet, everytime you
> 
> It takes two to tango.

I guess you just said I did not attack. So I am afraid
you are to tango on your own. For me I do not have time
for this.
 
> > greatly manage to make me regret to even do anything
> > for the middle east or the arab ppl, or even think
> > about translation.
> 
> That is your prerogative.

That's your done. Everytime I do something, you attack

Can you simply tell me now, without history talking, 
why are you attacking me here? Oh let me tell you:

- - Oh Sherif took the module to translate
- - Oh Sherif has concerns aginst arabeyes
- - Oh Sherif object to have Youcef a maintainer
- - Oh Sherif released the module
- - Oh what shall we do now! Let us give him hard time.

You accused me of playing game of taking, releasing,
retaking, releasing the module. I would like to know
where did you get that from. You went more claiming
that I have ill-feeling, old memories about Arabeyes.
Let me tell you, it is you who are assuming and building
on that. I simple:

- - Tried to help
- - Did learn there is someone working on it
- - Rleased the module for him
- - Stated that I have issues with the current translation
- - Stated I will discuss it. 
- - Objected due to the above reason, and due to the behavior
  (which you still acting on).

I said I am going to discuss and rais the issues. You 
never discussed. You just attacked, accused me playing
games ...etc. Get over it man! 
 
> I think it would help if you also think of Arabeyes as "The Arab Open
> Source Community". We are not a commercial entity. I know you didn't say
> that we were, but sometimes it is good to point it out.

Arab Eyes is a project. It is not the Arab Open Source
Community. It is like Fedora, is not the Linux Open Source
Community, but it s a project. I have was trying to help
but you simply put things on my mouth and attacked me
for your own twisted mind. Second time on a row you 
insits to attack before listen nor understand. And
this time you made up something that I am taking
leaving , taking the module trying to play games.
What a twisted mind. There is no one would force
me to leave this module if I insisted to translate
it, you need to understand this. So do not make
up a lie to satisfy you assumption that I am 
against arabeyes. 
 
> I think everyone can appreciate such effort. Unfortunately, just like
> with the current system at Fedora, it does not help -- kind of like a
> student who gets A for effort but fails the class anyway.

Did you wait and see if the student would fail ? Goodness
get over your sick assumption.

> > [..]
> > me with bull. I would appreciate if you forget about me
> 
> You make it hard to forget about you ;)

I will make sure to disapear from your screens so 
you forget me then. It is not funny and I am really
sick and tired from this. Let me withdraw my
objection on having anyone from Arabeyes to 
be the maintainer. Does that satisfy you?!!

I promise you once they open immegration for
Mars I will apply to leave the planet for you
so you can get over your old memories  and
forget about me!!
 
> Once again, "claims" are a by-product, it is by no means a "mission".
> If you think you can put together a team and coordinate yourself, then
> great. We would then hope to be able to coordinate standards of
> translations together. It so happens that Arabeyes handles a handful of
> translation projects (among other things). So, coordinating with
> Arabeyes, whether you wish to go at it alone or with Arabeyes, is in
> Fedora's best interest.

As I said I am withdrawing my offer to help, and my objection.
I will also not bother to proof reading or cheacking the translation.
I will not raise any more flags that I have issues. Does that
end this !! Goodness.
 
> Yes, then withrdraw your objection and let us continue to do the work we
> have been doing since March 12, 2004.

Have fun .. continou whatever you want. I am out of here, 
and I withdraw being arabic speaking person as well as
objecting to anything, satisfied ?
 
I hope now that you just ignore me, and act as if I am 
not there, I will make sure to double check anything
I do, if I see arabeyes I will just walk away. 

Do you want me to vote for Youcef as well to be maintainer
or withdrawing my objection is enough for you!! Goodness.

I am outta here.

Thanks

Sherif
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