Re: Behind what ?

[Nadim Shaikli <shaikli at yahoo dot com>]

--- ammer wrote:
> Nadim Shaikli wrote:
> 
> >--- ammer <ammer islamway net> wrote:
> >
> > >Bismillah Alrahman Alraheem
> >
> >Salam.  I very very very much suggest you list out what is it that Linux
> >is lacking so that everyone can take note of those short-comings and put
> >an action plan in place to address those issues.
> >  
>
> First of all, it is very strange for me to be asked about the lacks in 
> Arabic support in Linux from a guy who I am really expecting him to be 
> deeply involved in the arabization efforts and has a lot more 
> experiences than me (and I am sure you are and I have much respect for 
> you), but I think you need me to prove my sayings with something precise 
> (or may be I am too much outdated which I hope so), so OK I will try.

There is only so much a few people can do.  Your observations and
experience along with everyone else's is much needed.  To observe
and report something is the bare minimum that anyone can do; its
also expected that you not only report a problem or a short coming,
but be able to specify enough detail for others to either replicate
the problem (settings, command-lines, screenshots), or outright fix
it.  It is also expected that any potential fixes and/or additions
be tested out in as fast a manner as possible (ie. the feedback that
you (and others) will give is crucial).  As you can tell, this is a
very hands-on process and that commitment and wanting to help is
what we are seeking and inquiring about.  A case in point, we often
get posts (here on 'doc' and on 'developer') that note a new application
with the author seeking feedback (yudit was the most recent) and more
often than not, NO ONE even looks at it.  Now, you tell me - if you
were an application author/writer, would you be motivated to continue
that support ?  Personally, I wouldn't be.  Why should I worry about
language-X when language-X's users don't care about it -- see what
I mean.  We most seriously and very unfortunately have been branded
with that foul-smelling mark.  We find non-arab experts in OUR language
when there are no arabs that are interested in it (a rather harsh
generalization, but a truthful one non-the-less) and that needs to
start changing and we need to start it here.  Show your love for your
language and heritage by keeping it alive and by committing yourself
to it.

> I want to mention a notice:
> 
> Most (95%) of the guys who are paying for windows are working in the 
> enabled interface not the localized one because they want to get the 
> best of the software they are paying for (even if they are beginners in 
> English), and they are almost an employees, so the translation should be 
> the last thing we need to wory about and the functionality is the main 
> concern for us.
> Then we need developers to make thier efforts and others should try to 
> bring any other kind of support (financial/spritual/...) they can do, to 
> speed up the process.

We're trying to do exactly that.  We have a number of capable programmers
who have jumped into dealing with various technical issues in hopes of
bringing more Arabic support to light (that's what the 'developer' list
is all about).  Now what about the rest of YOU ?  What about the casual
users who know nothing about programming, but are looking to learn and
want to help ?  The translation (although not high on some people's list)
is still very much needed and is in some instances very much a
requirement.  In order to have both tracks on-going a level of commitment
is needed and it seems like the translation folk ('doc' list people)
simply don't have that commitment.  In our probes only a couple of people
replied, meaning (to me anyways) that the others simply don't even care
enough to state their opinion.  If we want to excel in this process we
need everyone to be engaged and have all pistons moving at all times.
That, I'm afraid, is not happening on the translation front.  If you
are waiting to be handed something, wait no longer -- NO ONE WILL GIVE
IT TO YOU !!

> First I will mention some key applications and some problems in arabic:
> 
> - Storing the Files in Arabic names with all the functionality needed 
>   for that like search and easy to rename....

In mlterm you can use 'ls -N' to list - check out the various other
command ('mv' etc) and see if they have UTF-8 support.  Investigate
what's needed for Bash/tcsh help, etc (look for UTF-8 support as a
starting point).  Again, we need help in looking into all these
thing (this is very common theme by now).

> - Easy way to move the arabic named files from windows to Linux

Look into Samba and investigate whether it has UTF-8 support.  Pester
its authors for its inclusion (if its not there), etc.

> - An eady guide for beginners in Arabic Language, and a support forum in 
> Arabic

Mr. Elzubeir is doing that -- yet again, anyone else could have started
that effort, so why wait for it, why not do it yourself and ask the
needed questions to fill in the wholes ?

> - OpenOffice: all modules (I don't consider any importance for KOffice 
> because it is far away from competing with MS Office)
> - Scheduling Program integrated in OpenOffice (Evolution still gtk1.x 
> and KOrganizer is still bahind evolution with some problems in Arabic)
> - Mozilla (It is the defacto industry supported 
> Browser/Mail/Envirenment) (for developers: please take your time to read 
> about Mozilla as an environment, also visit oeone.com as an example of 
> what easy we can do a switch from QT to GTK2 and gain the built in 
> Arabic/Bidi support inside Mozilla) but still the mail program suffers a 
> lot of misbehaviors in Arabic text like selecting and navigating.

You need to be more specific.  I would also suggest telling the authors
of those applications and make sure to keep on top of the issues.  At one
point I had suggested we have an entire team keep such issues alive
and that this team would be vocal about Arabic's inclusion, etc (look
over the various archives from arabeyes' early days).  Once you establish
contact with those authors, CC your discussion on the appropriate list
on arabeyes.

> - GIMP (It still lack the features of GTK2) and no Arabic support in it 
> (So I can convice our designers to switch to GIMP).

Not sure what kind of Arabic support you envision in Gimp.

> - Access Alternative with arabic support for databases with arabic names 
> of modules and full text search
> - IDE with easy to access Arabic specific features (like direction in 
> delphi)
> - Easy to swich keyboards (shortcut like alt-shift of windows)
> - Printing Arabic text from browsers/office (I tried it using the 
> israeli hacked bidi open office rpm and it is working but it is not 
> WYSIWYG perfectly, by the way it is updated now and it is merged with 
> the tree of openoffice 1.0.0)

Not very sure what above means.  You might want to start separate threads
on each item and give more detail (possibly to the application author,
CC'ing this or other lists).

> Also we need to implement an easy way to give our donations, and I am 
> one of the guys who don't have any credit card, and I will never agree 
> to make any transfer to any where out of Islamic World (so please 
> clarify/forward me to the options I have to make a payment)

If you have ideas, let us know.  We're using paypal and every cent,
filis or darham is clearly shown and accounted for (nothing,
absolutely nothing disappears).  All collected money is invested
back into arabeyes (more and/or better hardware).

> - I already convinced all my freinds (Programmers, technicals, admins, 
> webmasters, managers, computer users) that Linux is our future and 
> nothing will stop it from spreading and advancing (In shaa Allah)

Make sure to instill upon them their expected level of commitment and
required assistance - you can only be a consumer for so long.  At some
point, as I'm sure you're finding out, you will have to start producing
on your own and seek assistance and refuge.  This is where such volunteer
organization, like arabeyes and the various LUGs, could be of great help
(of course if there were able and willing people to do it - again, read
"are people committed to help here ?" into all of this :-)  If you were to
go to a LUG and ask a question but no one answered, you would rapidly
run away since they weren't much help, right ?

> - (as a private work) Planning to move a school to use LTSP and the BIDI 
> version of OpenOffice as their main environment (Harddiskless 
> workstations, with GIGABIT switch port connected to the server as an option)

Excellent - great effort indeed; keep it up.  Our youth (future) has to be
raised with self-sustenance in mind !!  You might want to give a lecture
or two about linux to get people more interested at looking at the actual
source code.

Again, the conversation has taken many many turns.  I by no means am asking
you, Ammer, personally anything - I am wondering aloud what will it take to
get people motivated to help ?  What do we need to do (as individuals and as
a community) to get a commitment from everyone ?  We are only as strong
and as successful as our weakest and laziest volunteer - until that is
realized and FULLY comprehended we will continue to be short-handed.

YOUR involvement and commitment and help is NEEDED - its that simple.

Salam.

 - Nadim


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