Re: more on Duali

[Nadim Shaikli <shaikli at yahoo dot com>]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:25:14 -0500,
  "Mohammed Elzubeir" <elzubeir arabeyes org> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 12:53:20PM -0700, Nadim Shaikli wrote:
> > 
> > I'm certainly no expert in this field (its been way TOO long since I've
> > looked/learned all these interesting rules), but I would tend to think
> > that generating a list of root verbs (be it 3 characters or more even)
> 
> The vast majority will be 3 letters, some are 4.
> 
> > and define a set of rules for prefix and suffix ought to work.  One thing
> > to note - if memory serves there are lots of exceptions to all the rules
> > in Arabic grammar and so I would not be surprised if the prefix/suffix
> > rules you come up with will not hold true for all the "root" verbs; meaning
> 
> Problem is 'what are those exceptions?' ;) I can catch and modify some
> of them out of my long-forgotten Arabic background.. or tell by visually
> going through the output it's generating. I just don't see it as an
> effective method.

True, but you'd hope that a pattern will emerage out of this excersize to
jog that memory (or at least you'd hope :-)

> > there will likely be 4-5 prefix/suffix groupings and so it then becomes an
> > exercise in data-collection (ie. how to generate this root verb list and
> 
> Yes, I can categorize them (the same way I do with the derivative templates).
> But as with the derivatives, it's a matter of mathematics.. but for a
> prefix/suffix categorization I need more Arabic background. For example,
> Kareem's morpho3[1] (which does a lot of this already) has prefix/suffix
> lists. It has been the best starting point I could find. However, what
> goes together and what doesn't.. and what prefix would render another
> suffix impossible to be in one word.

You might also solicit help from the various hard core translators
on the 'doc' mailing-lists (give 'em a jolt and wake 'em up as well :-).
Didn't we have a few linguists that had volunteered at some point (yeah,
yeah - I know, they disappeared, right ?) -- there were also a couple of
people with family members who are accomplished linguists.  In short - ask
for help on other lists and forums seeking specifically linguists and
Arab-language professors (John Eisele (jceise -at- wm edu) of AATA 
http://www.wm.edu/aata might help), etc.  Make sure to start with specifics
and with examples.

> > groupings).  Once the basics are in place, I'd suggest grabbing a number
> > of Arabic websites' data and running duali on it in order to generate a
> > wider data set.
> 
> I don't really want to go there, as I can't trust any site for having all
> correct spelling. However, I did entertain the thought of using the Quran
> text for testing purposes. Are those XML's complete, M.Yousif?

If you're opting for the Holy Quran, be aware of the fact that modern day
Arabic doesn't constitute some of the words written there-in to be spelled
according to current agreed-upon customs (just an FYI).

Salam.

 - Nadim


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