Re: Re: Unicode Font Maker

[Meor Ridzuan Meor Yahaya <meor dot ridzuan at gmail dot com>]

Mete, 
The short answer: Yes.

The long answer, it depends. Anyway, they should not have inserted the
kashida between lam and alef, anyway, but that is not the issue here.
There are many sequence in arabic that it should be inserted, but it
will depend highly on the font. If , for example, the font does have
an alternative glyph for the sequence lam yeh reh , then a kashida
should not be inserted between them. If the font does now have a
special alternative for it, then it is perfectly OK to insert a
kashida between the glyph. Opentype does have a table called JALT
(justification alternative), but to me it is rather limited in
functionality. But even with it's limited functionality, Mr Paul
Nelson admit that there is no application from Microsoft that uses
that table as far as he know.

You can have a look at IE arabic specification, at
http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/msdn/JustifyingText-CSS.aspx
It does mentioned the priority of inserting a tatweel. From myt own
simple test, if you did not specify the text-justify property, it will
insert a tatweel/kashida between the lam and alef. If you specify the
text-justify property to have some value other than kashida (the
default , I think ), I need to check more. In theory, if you specify
text-justify:inter-word, there should be no kashida inserted. However,
Mr Paul Nelson admit that there is a bug in IE 5.5 implementation, but
it seems that even IE 6 suffers from the same problem. It seesm that
if you specify text-justify:inter-word, the justification is done a
bit different under IE 6, but kashida is there, especially for the
last word of each line.

Regards.

On 8/3/05, Mete Kural <metek at touchtonecorp dot com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Meor,
> 
> Hmm... Does IE justification add tatweel between lam and alef even with the SIL Scheherzade font? Can you test that?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mete
> 
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: Meor Ridzuan Meor Yahaya <meor dot ridzuan at gmail dot com>
> Reply-To: General Arabization Discussion <general at arabeyes dot org>
> Date:  Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:57:39 +0800
> 
> >Thomas,
> >Are you suggesting that the font is a tremendous improvement because
> >the font does not have any ligature? This is a sincere questions, not
> >to belittle you. I would like to share my experience in this regards.
> >Although I'm neither a professional font developer nor expert in the
> >field, I do find a problem with fonts without ligature. Of course ,
> >this can be solve, but need some consideration.
> >
> >Actually, I've done some work on this to the extend that all typical
> >ligature is replaced, and I would say the font I develop is good. The
> >font does have more alternatives then just lam alef sequence. I've
> >sent a screenshot of the font to Mete, and Gregg if I'm not mistaken.
> >The positive point about it is that software will be able to display
> >an individual glyph with different colors. Plus, this approach will
> >definately works under Linux without any problems. So, that is the
> >plus side.
> >On the other hand, with this type of font, we will need some serious
> >work when trying to justify a text /paragraph. Paul Nelson describe on
> >Microsoft page that IE 5.5 supposedly have 3 mode for arabic
> >justification: inter-word, tatweel and newspaper (if I'm not mistaken)
> >Anyway, basically here's how the 3 mode should work:
> >1. Inter word: inserting spaces between words. This is the most
> >typical type of justification for any script.
> >2. Tatweel : this is specific to arabic, and the most common method for arabic.
> >3. Newspaper : spaces inserted inter-word and some intra-word. I'm not
> >so sure if tatweel is used.
> >
> >Anyway, that's the theory. When I try to use it (by using CSS), guess
> >what? The inter-word key does not work! It still insert tatweel here
> >and there. So, what is the problem? Just imagine a tatweel inserted
> >between lam and alef ! That is just an example, althgouh they might be
> >smart enough not to do that. Anyway, I can confirmed that tatweel will
> >be inserted , and we can't really control it. So, maybe not for lam
> >alef, but sequence like yeh reh will difinitely be effected. And is
> >does look wierd.
> >
> >After I found this problem, I stop further improving the font. I hope
> >this can be solved, but not sure how. Of course, this is not a major
> >issue, bt I do not want to waste my time much on something that might
> >not work. Just want to share my experience  with people here. This is
> >one of the reason why I mentioned before that I really would like to
> >see people work seriously on Arabic justification problem.
> >
> >Regards.
> >
> >On 8/1/05, Thomas Milo <t dot milo at chello dot nl> wrote:
> >> Here is a tremendous improvement over Microsoft's "Arabic Typesetting" font.
> >> By simply omitting all ligatures (even al-laah is absent!), SIL managed to
> >> produce two fonts that avoid making a mockery of the Islamic calligraphic
> >> tradition, while offering basic legibility for the whole range of supported
> >> Unicode characters. Not bad at all.
> >>
> >> The fonts do indeed look awfully familiar: one of them is in fact described
> >> as being "in a similar style as the Monotype naskh". Similar in style in
> >> this case is an artistic euphemism. The new naskh (called Scheherazade and
> >> for some reason spelled as in German -  Persian: ÔçÑÒÇÏ Shahrzad) ) has the
> >> exact same tell-tale design blunders as the Monotype naskh, in the letters
> >> Sad and Tah: the top penstroke of the Sad extends under the base line in all
> >> positions (which in naskh is the case in non-final position only), the top
> >> penstroke of the Tah erroneously extends under the base line in middle
> >> position: here clearly some un-initiated employee mixed up Sad and Tah
> >> morphology, as the top penstroke of Tah never extends below the base line.
> >> Monotype in turn made these mistakes when copying the 1924 King Fuad naskh
> >> with only superficial knowledge of the subject matter (that this was in fact
> >> the case can be seen from additional tell-tale mistakes that Monotype failed
> >> to intercept when aorking from the Fuad naskh, and that, indeed, made their
> >> way into all Monotype successive clones including these latest ones).
> >>
> >> The accumulated mistakes of the Fuad naskh and the Monotype naskh found
> >> their way into the SIL naskh, so these latest fonts stand firmly in the
> >> Arabic typographic tradition. But it's a free download, so only professional
> >> type designers can complain.
> >>
> >> Together with the Gentium transcription font SIL succeeded in enabling
> >> scholars to prepare their publications in Unicode format, so that
> >> professional typesetters can ignore these public domain fonts without losing
> >> essential information.
> >>
> >> t
> >>
> >>
> >> Connie Bobroff wrote:
> >> > Dear All,
> >> >
> >> > You might like these new, free, unicode Arabic fonts.  They contain
> >> > the Persian characters as well.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=ArabicFonts
> >> >
> >> > Windows users want to download the "Open Type" version and
> >> > Mac users need the "AAT".
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -Connie
> >> >
> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> >  ~  The ADABIYAT email list for Middle Eastern Literary Traditions   ~
> >> >  ~  Archives (http://www.listserv.emory.edu/archives/adabiyat.html)  ~
> >> >
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Conni
> >> e Bobroff wrote:
> >> > Dear All,
> >> >
> >> > You might like these new, free, unicode Arabic fonts.  They contain
> >> > the Persian characters as well.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=ArabicFonts
> >> >
> >> > Windows users want to download the "Open Type" version and
> >> > Mac users need the "AAT".
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -Connie
> >> >
> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> >  ~  The ADABIYAT email list for Middle Eastern Literary Traditions   ~
> >> >  ~  Archives (http://www.listserv.emory.edu/archives/adabiyat.html)  ~
> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> Mete Kural wrote:
> >> >> I'm forwarding this email about font tools from the unicode list
> >> >> since it is relevant to the recent discussion:
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> >> >> From: John Hudson <tiro at tiro dot com>
> >> >> Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:55:31 -0700
> >> >>
> >> >> Adam Reisman wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Can anyone recommend a program I can use to design unicode fonts?
> >> >>
> >> >> Professional tools:
> >> >> http://www.fontlab.com/Font-tools/FontLab-4.6/
> >> >> http://www.fontlab.com/Font-tools/AsiaFont-Studio/
> >> >> http://www.fontmaster.nl/english/
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheaper options:
> >> >> http://www.fontlab.com/Font-tools/TypeTool/
> >> >> http://www.high-logic.com/fcp.html
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Free tools:
> >> >> http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> There is also a new shareware tool available from
> >> >> http://www.cr8.netfirms.com/index10.html
> >> >> but I have not tried it.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> If you are interested in developing OpenType fonts with glyph
> >> >> substitution and
> >> >> positioning, you will also want to take a look at Microsoft's free
> >> >> VOLT tool: http://www.microsoft.com/typography/VOLT.mspx
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I recommend reading most of the developer links at the MS typography
> >> >> website http://www.microsoft.com/typography
> >> >> even if your target system is not Windows.
> >> >>
> >> >> John Hudson
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >>
> >> >> Tiro Typeworks        www.tiro.com
> >> >> Vancouver, BC        tiro at tiro dot com
> >> >>
> >> >> Currently reading:
> >> >> Between silk and cyanide, by Leo Mark
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Mete Kural
> >> >> Touchtone Corporation
> >> >> 714-755-2810
> >> >> --
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >> General at arabeyes dot org
> >> >> http://lists.arabeyes.org/mailman/listinfo/general
> >>
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> >>
> >
> 
> --
> Mete Kural
> Touchtone Corporation
> 714-755-2810
> --
> 
> 
> 
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